Brain scanner predicts decisions

[Cesium]

Link.

In the study, scientists used a brain scanner to predict decisions that people made. They could confidently state the outcome up to seven seconds before the subject was consciously aware of making a decision. The results throw free will into some doubt, although not conclusively disproved.

Discuss.

[Nines~Tempest]

Free will into doubt?  Don't you mean free will is 7 seconds fast ?

[Rosti LFC]

I was going to say, I don't think it removes free will. It just means we make decisions subconciously quite a while before we conciously acknowledge the decision has been made.
Which frankly doesn't suprise me. I'll not know what chocolate to buy at a shop or something, and flip a coin on it, and it'll let me know what I really want, because if the decision goes the other way I'll just end up disobeying the coin, even though I thought I didn't know before I flipped it.

[Empirical Pussy]

Yeah, I really don't think that has anything to do with free will.

[Cesium]

It does, because free will is the indeterminacy of one's mental state. That is, decisions aren't determined by what came before. If the outcome can actually be predicted long before the decision is consciously realized, then there is a greater chance that the mind isn't indeterminate. Yes, that could just mean the subconscious decides before the conscious mind is aware. But what factors came into the subconscious decision? If those factors alone determine the subconscious decision, then the subconscious is determinate and free will's part is reduced.

[GracefulDave]

I don't see any effect on free will, just the fact that decisions aren't made where we thought they were. As for the factors, I'd say they're the same factors that seemed to make the decision in the conscious mind, they're just used before we realize it.

[Rosti LFC]

That is, decisions aren't determined by what came before

Yes they are. Your subconscious mind isn't something that is pre-selected at birth and remains locked for the remainder of your life. It's something that changes over time and with life experience.
All this means is that your brain is aware of your decision before you and your mouth are. Which though quite neat, has nothing to do with free will.

[Cesium]

Yes they are. Your subconscious mind isn't something that is pre-selected at birth and remains locked for the remainder of your life. It's something that changes over time and with life experience.
All this means is that your brain is aware of your decision before you and your mouth are. Which though quite neat, has nothing to do with free will.

That's true, and obviously our decisions aren't altogether separate from past events, or else we'd all be doing completely random things and memory would be useless. The question is over the degree to which those past events have control over future actions, and if the decision is already made in the subconscious before the conscious mind is aware, I'd say the conscious mind -- that is, free will -- doesn't have as much control as we might have thought.

[Rosti LFC]

Ultimately though, the conscious mind and the subconscious tend to be the same entity.
Really, the interesting thing would be to determine if there were some decisions that were made by the subconscious mind that were then overridden by the conscious one, but you'd need rather probing questions for that to come into effect.
Or what happens with lying? What happens if, when asked if their name is John, or whatever it is, they lie and say no?
Is it that the subconscious says the correct answer, and the conscious overrides and gives the incorrect one, or is the subconscious one also aware of the need to lie, and therefore gives the incorrect one to start with.

[Redlazer]

That isn't very accurate, all they can predict is which button you're going to push. I've made decisions that took me way less than seven seconds to decide.

[Cesium]

Ultimately though, the conscious mind and the subconscious tend to be the same entity.
Really, the interesting thing would be to determine if there were some decisions that were made by the subconscious mind that were then overridden by the conscious one, but you'd need rather probing questions for that to come into effect.
Or what happens with lying? What happens if, when asked if their name is John, or whatever it is, they lie and say no?
Is it that the subconscious says the correct answer, and the conscious overrides and gives the incorrect one, or is the subconscious one also aware of the need to lie, and therefore gives the incorrect one to start with.

Right, the question then is when and to what extent the conscious mind can change the decision. Obviously when one chooses to lie, the correct information remains in the mind, but is suppressed by the decision to lie. I'd lean toward that decision coming from the conscious mind, if only because of the conflict that arises between the known correct answer and the given incorrect one. If the subconscious gave the wrong one from the start, I think there'd be much less of a tough decision, and fewer signs detectable by polygraph, for example.