The Changes In Brawl

[Alex]

I almost never have to train for the E4.

Ah well, I'll be the only one here in Brawl's/Pokemon's Metagame...

The only reason I won't be in Brawl's metagame is that Brawl is a really mediocre game.

[Nines~Tempest]

The only reason I won't be in Brawl's metagame is that Brawl is a really mediocre game.

How so?  Were you even involved in Melee's?

[Alex]

Brawl is a boring game with measures designed specifically to stop it from being a serious fighter. It feels slow and unpolished. There are many other fighters I'd rather play.
And yes, I was.

[Nines~Tempest]

Brawl is a boring game with measures designed specifically to stop it from being a serious fighter. It feels slow and unpolished. There are many other fighters I'd rather play.
And yes, I was.

Well now that I've discovered you are hylian...

The hell?  "Unpolished?"  The game is smoother, it is just slower and doesn't rely on advanced tech as much.  While slower, the whole metagame is changed from melee's "Pwn my shield/be faster than me" to a prediction game.  It's chess now.

[Alex]

It's not chess, it's camping. They've purposefully made it so casuals can compete just by laser spamming. They don't want people to be good. They've admitted it, they want a party game where the playing field is always level, no matter how good you are. Unpolished is what I see when I see Toon Link's moveset, and three space animals. It's unoriginal. It's like they ran out of time and just shoved characters in (like they did in Melee.) Melee relied on prediction just as much as it relied on speed. Brawl feels like a step back on that.

[Nines~Tempest]

Unpolished is what I see when I see Toon Link's moveset, and three space animals. It's unoriginal.

Wow.  There's are only one REAL clone now, and that'd 'Dorf.  Tink has 3+ changed moves, and that was more difference than any clone from melee ever had, and changing the definition of clone to fit brawl would just show you like to complain.  Also, what characters from star fox aren't space animals?  Wolf has a freaking unique moveset as well -_- Are you trying to pull a "he's a clone" on me?

Sakurai said he wanted a MORE even playing field.  Camping is a more beneficial strategy, but it's just as easy to fake your aggression.  It is VERY easy to run at someone and SH an Nair (most in this game have little-no lag) and just land in front of them out of any kind of range.  If they wait, they risk getting grabbed, or if they attack, they leave themselves open.  Prediction was in melee, HURDURRR, but now it essentially IS the metagame.  You don't need the "WD OUT OF A SHIELD" or a good shield-cancelled up B, like Samus.  I won't mention power shielding and how easy it is due to the fact that it helps both a camper and the aggressor.

Also, a lot of strategies, such as camping and laser spamming, are far more proficient online.  Using them in a real life setting sets you up to die just as much as it would in Melee.

[Alex]

(I think I split everything right?)
I'm not talking about clones, I'm talking about originality. Toon Link may have a few different moves, but looking at sheer originality, he falls flat. He could have had unique specials and a new final smash, easily. But of course he didn't: Nintendo skipped out on the originality, changed a few moves, and made him vastly better than regular Link. How is that a good thing? Same with Wolf. Fox is a Fox with a laser gun who calls a Landmaster. Wolf is a Wolf with a laser gun who calls a Landmaster. After playing games with characters brimming with originality, Brawl just.. doesn't match up. It's like they didn't care at all. Of course, Melee was basically the same, but I could look past that, due to it being extremely fun. Melee had the perfect mix of defense and offense, speed and thought, camping and combos. The Brawl team has gone out of their way to remove combos and speed, and focus more on turtling and camping. Great.

[GracefulDave]

He could have had unique specials and a new final smash, easily.

I believe the second delay of Brawl was due to the fact Ganondorf had a different Final Smash from Falcon, though I could be wrong. Considering the delay, I don't mind that they cut a few corners.

I think your complaint about the lack of originality compared to Brawl falls short because what clones there are, they aren't as cloned as Melee was, and there are WAY more characters to choose from to make up for the fact some are similar, not to mention the completely new play styles found in Olimar, Wario, etc. Having more original characters than Melee is not a short coming.

Brawl is not a serious fighter, yes, but does that make it a "mediocre game"? I don't think it does. It's different. I am a bit disappointed in the fact that they took out the aspects that allowed you to really put yourself ahead of the average player, but I do like the play style. There aren't any more deaths where, because you pulled off the right button combo, you killed him. The percentages go way higher, there's more fight per life, and, frankly, the better players WILL win. If you're getting beaten by laser spam... well, try harder. A good game of SSBM was a lot of clicking as shields where hit until someone made the first mistake and got destroyed. Now you can get in a couple of good hits or combos before getting killed.

By the way, what is meant exactly by camping?

[Defose]

Sitting in the same spot repeatedly shooting a laser or something.

[Alex]

Brawl is a mediocre game compared to Melee.

"There aren't any more deaths where, because you pulled off the right button combo, you killed him."

Thanks to the way percentage works in SSB (and because of DIng), it's really not driven by mega combos the same way games like MVC2 and.. I dunno, Mortal Kombat were. (That's the impression I got when I played Mortal Kombat, at least. I could be wrong). Because of the way they changed the weights in Brawl, even the smaller, on the spot adaptable combos of Melee just aren't there. Moves send people out of the range of combos at much lower percents.

"If you're getting beaten by laser spam... well, try harder. A good game of SSBM was a lot of clicking as shields where hit until someone made the first mistake and got destroyed."
I'm not saying (or at least, I'm not trying to say) that spamming projectiles (which is what I mean when I say camping, staying in one place and spamming projectiles then quickly fleeing when approached) is the be-all end-all method of killing or the ultimate strategy. I'm saying they've made it much more effective, which shows how they've really taken out a lot of the skill required to really rack up damage.

The people who will get really good at Brawl are people who will specifically try and get good at a game that doesn't want you to be good. They'll be working against the game, compared to Melee where there were measures put in to really inspire improvement.

I could very well be to quick to judge Brawl, though. Most of Melee's metagame came from techniques that really weren't meant to be in. Brawl may have just as many techniques, and just as much depth. However, from a game design view, Melee was definitely designed with the potential to have serious fighting elements, while Brawl was definitely designed to be a party game, with deliberate removal of Melee techniques. To someone like me who played Melee because as a fighting game, not a party game, it really pisses me off.

[Alex]

>Nintendo Power: "This is one that a lot of hardcore Smash Bros. fans have long wondered about. Was the ablility to "Wavedash" in Melee intentional or a glitch?"

>Sakurai: "Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period.
With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn't a matter of, "OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?"
We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a big priority or anything, but when we were building the
game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy."

My friend found this on /v/. I don't get NP anymore so I can't confirm if this is true, but what does everyone think?

[Genevra]

I checked my Nintendo Power, it's true. I scanned it for further proof.

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3774/durrtruthyx7.jpg

[Fluffy Cocaine]

Since I'm really overall a mediocre player and never got into the technical stuff, I have to sort of appreciate that they're making a point of closing the gap between skilled players and mediocre players like me. At the same time, however, I can see why advanced players would be really pissed about this. They finally get online play, but the game takes all of their skill potential away.

[Alex]

Any chance you could sum up the rest of the interview for me?

[Alex]

Since I'm really overall a mediocre player and never got into the technical stuff, I have to sort of appreciate that they're making a point of closing the gap between skilled players and mediocre players like me. At the same time, however, I can see why advanced players would be really pissed about this. They finally get online play, but the game takes all of their skill potential away.

But, the thing was, if you were not that great, you could still have a lot of fun. If you're constantly getting whipped by skilled players, it should be incentive to get better.

[Rosti LFC]

Yeah, I never get why they say they want to bridge that gap.

Skilled players should beat amateur players. I mean, that's just how things work, and it's stupid to try and make it otherwise.
If the players are skilled because they're actually better, then they should win. If they're skilled simply because they know tricks that amateur players don't, then they should still win, because it's not hard for the amateur players to learn the tricks and be as good as the skilled players if they so choose.
Something like wavedashing doesn't give anyone an unfair advantage. It just gives a bit of an advantage to those people who read into the game a bit more, and frankly they deserve it.

[Redlazer]

Sitting in the same spot repeatedly shooting a laser or something.

Ah, so that's what your tactic with Pit is called. 

EDIT: Rolly eyes smilie doesn't work

[Fluffy Cocaine]

But, the thing was, if you were not that great, you could still have a lot of fun. If you're constantly getting whipped by skilled players, it should be incentive to get better.

It doesn't always work that way. If I'm always crushed by people better than me, I just get discouraged with the game.

[Wilhelmina Carmel]

It doesn't always work that way. If I'm always crushed by people better than me, I just get discouraged with the game.

Same here.

And honestly, I haven't found "anything new to enjoy." I despise how they made Samus so much slower. I remember (well, it was yesterday...) that I was fighting my friend's brother and he always used the fskin' ray gun and you know what? I always lost since he just kept pressing A, A, A, A and when the rules changed to mine, I won because I have all items set to off. Spamming lasers is not fair play. How are we supposed to get better? I know if I try to get out of the laser barrage, I can't because who knows why? Maybe I am horrible, but even a horrible person would know how to get out of the ray gun's attacks. If it were possible.

[Alex]

It doesn't always work that way. If I'm always crushed by people better than me, I just get discouraged with the game.

Then find people closer to your level, and start there. If they had a rank based online mode in Melee, you could have done something like that.

Sparks: See, now you're not fighting a skilled player. You're getting beaten by the very tactics they put in to make newbie players good. :x