Author Topic: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On  (Read 967 times)

Offline Rosti LFC

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2008, 10:16:02 AM »
For me the Christians who follow religion and don't have to reject at least some science aren't proper Christians. I'm not saying all Christians have to be creationists, but the fact exists that there is no real room in scientific theory for God to exist. "We just haven't discovered him yet" is not a valid argument, because there's plenty of crap we'll never discover simply because they don't exist. We've not discovered monkeys with 13,000 fingers. We've not discovered whales the size of Jupiter. Sure, we've not discovered aliens either, but their probability of existence is at least roughly on a par with ours, and we know we exist (stfu Philosophy :P), therefore their existence isn't hugely unlikely.
The people who follow science yet still claim to be Christian aren't proper Christians. They're the sort of people who don't read the Bible, don't go to church, don't really lead any sort of religious life aside from the fact they say they're Christians. They're the people who 'believe' in God purely out of convenience. Not much thought involved, just the fact that it's probably nicer if he does exist and if they say they believe him. They're basically just agnostics claiming to be Christians, not really too different from people who claim to be Christian purely through the argument of Pascal's Wager.

I'd argue that the world would be a better place if all organised religion was destroyed. I wouldn't go to make outlandish claims that we'd live in some sort of Utopia where there were no wars and everyone lived happily, but I do think it would be better.
There would still probably be wars. We'd find other shit to fight about. But at least the wars would make a little more sense. We'd have acts of terrorism and wars based on proper issues, such as imbalance of wealth, power, land. Wars formed over true injustices, rather than religious wars simply because their made-up God isn't the same as our made-up one. Ideally I wouldn't want any wars, but if you're going to fight about something you might as well pick something worth fighting about.

Organised religion also has a shitload of money locked up. In America alone the Catholic Church has enough wealth to buy out all of the richest dozen or so corporations (combined). It's insane how many trillions of dollars that is owned by religious bodies, and how much benefit that money could otherwise do were it not locked up in people's beliefs. We could eradicate poverty in Africa, remove our dependence on coal and oil and convert ourselves to use renewable energy sources. Heck, we might even have some money left over to find cures for Cancer and AIDS. If we could strip that money from religion and distribute it properly, I don't see how the world couldn't be a far better place for the global population.

The main argument (that I've heard at least) for retaining religion is that on an individual level it helps people. It helps people find some sort of solace when they're troubled. It helps bring them back from the brink of suicide. Perhaps a fair argument, but really I don't see that all that won't still happen without religion, because I find it depends more on your mental outlook.
If your mother goes crazy and tries to kill you as a child, but fails, then you could say that God saved you, and find some sort of peace in that. On the other hand, you could say that for some reason God tried to kill you, and random chance prevented it from happening (though this fails a little under the illusion that God is both omnipotent and not evil). I'd say that if God was going to save you, why the fuck would he let you have the trouble of nearly dying? There was an assassination attempt on the Pope a while ago, and he got shot. He said it was an act of God (I think it was the Virgin Mary more precisely) that the bullet intended for his heart was strayed away and the wound was non-fatal. But if that was the case why wouldn't they have gone the full measure and stopped it hitting him completely. Why not make the gun malfunction and explode, wounding the assassin. That'd be a proper miracle, rather than the more plausible explanation that the assassin had crappy aim, due to not being professionally trained in any way to use firearms, and simply missed.
When people are troubled, they should be able to find some way to bring themselves up if they're so inclined. There's no reason why they should need religion, or why religion can do something that nothing else can't. We don't need it for morals or for support - society does a perfectly good of providing that now.

Religion is disappearing. In Europe it's moved out to a decent extent, with most people at least being agnostic or weakly Christian. People who are devoutly religious are getting extremely rare as most people accept the more logical and proven scientific alternatives over more implausible religious beliefs that require blind faith as they have little to back them up. Most people who go to church now are pensioners with little better to do on a Sunday and who are more ingrained to the older religious beliefs. Or they're just aware that they're closer to death and are trying to perhaps make amends before they go.
America seems to be more heavily religious and more resistant to change, but I still can't see it holding out for much longer. With each generation it'll continue to slide. Whether the world is better off or not as a result, it won't be long before religion falls altogether and Christianity is viewed as somewhat delusional in the same light as ghosts, alien abductions and telepathy.

Offline StandardDamage

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2008, 10:59:53 PM »
It really does depend on how you want to look at it.  I'd say that religion is getting a bit better lately than it was say 40 years ago.  When my mom went to school, she was taught by insanely strict nuns who would basically whip you with that strap if you were out of line.  She had to say so many prayers a certain number of times a day.  And more-less, they pretty much made her into a much more emotional person who experiences guilt far more easily.  They forced the guilt into her head and it has definitely carried on through her adult years.

You've had some great posts in here, Clyde.  I would agree, the Catholic church our parents were raised in...loaded with guilt...is very different from the one we were brought up in.

The thing with religion is that some are slower to change than others.  I was raised not only to have faith, but to be very aware of what went on around me and to think for myself.  It also (you mentioned this yourself) taught me to be a lot more tolerant of others views, lifestyles, preferences, and choices.  However, some other religions, even other churches within the Catholic faith, may not have come as far as the one I was raised in.  Turning the coin...some have come way farther than even my own church has.

I could go on and on, but I would be reapeating a lot of what you said already.  I do know what a positive force faith can have, as long as it's tempered with reason.

And saying that God exists itself is defying and thus ignoring science.

I'm again inviting you to not just say "LOLOL THAT CHART IS LAUGHABLE" over and over again and actually tell me where religion deviates from just "form a belief and keep it regardless of what comes along to disprove it".

LOLOL THAT CHART IS LAUGHABLE.

One religion that deviates from it is the Roman Catholic religion.  This is part of that "improvement" that Clyde and I were talking about.  It was intensely resistant to science and reason at one point, that's changed a lot.

Freeze, I have no idea where your sweeping generalizations of organized religion come from.  It could be bad personal experiences, something you've read, or too much TV.  Whatever the cause, it bothers me because it's the only time I've ever seen you paint a group of people all the same color...with an incredibly wide brush.

Belief in God and belief in science can co-exist in the same person.  I'm walking proof of that.  Just because science can't prove, or disprove, the existence of God doesn't mean that there isn't one.  The fact is that no one knows.  So we could argue it until everyone's blue in the face, and nobody would feel any different than when we started.

I'd love to respond to Rosti's post, but I'm getting tired.  I'll try to respond to it tomorrow.

Offline Fluffy Cocaine

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2008, 11:51:28 PM »
Quote
Freeze, I have no idea where your sweeping generalizations of organized religion come from.  It could be bad personal experiences, something you've read, or too much TV.  Whatever the cause, it bothers me because it's the only time I've ever seen you paint a group of people all the same color...with an incredibly wide brush.

I had no intent to represent the followers negatively. I had an intent to represent the religion itself negatively which resulted in some malevolent followers.

Offline Cesium

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2008, 02:32:34 AM »
Say there is no more religion.  Everyone is now atheists.  Everything about every religion has been wiped out of our memories and wiped off the face of the planet.  Would the world be a less violent place or would things probably stay the same?
So there are many reasons for violence. The small stuff, bar fights, sexual assaults, etc. will probably decrease with a strong code of ethics (which doesn't have to come from religion, but it helps) but they'll still be there. More on that later.

Wars happen when some people want something some other people have. Very rarely does a religion, say, declare a crusade for no other reason than spreading the faith to the unbelievers. There's always a physical reason - taking back Jerusalem, plundering the rich lands of Arabia, increasing merchant traffic across the Mediterranean. Religion is often used as a cover or extra motivation, but that doesn't mean it's responsible. Few Western (at least) nations over the centuries have acted in strict accordance with religious practice. So wars would likely still exist.

The overall level of violence within a country is dependent on many factors, not just religion. People need something to believe in, but the lack of one doesn't necessarily lead to violence. The lack of a uniform code of ethics - a preemptive motivation rather than a subsequent punishment - would likely be the larger factor. Yet such a code is not easily spread without religion. With increasing disillusionment in religion, the religious are decreasing in number; with increasing education, widespread blind belief is becoming impossible while the virtues of not beating people up are not yet universally appreciated. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it has something to do with human nature.

Human nature means that people will always use violence to defend themselves or try to improve their circumstances. To decrease violence, something must counteract that tendency. Traditionally religion has been more effective than legal systems, but right now I think if everyone became atheists crime would not increase dramatically. Atheists are in general nonviolent, but I would guess true atheists are on average more educated than those responsible for violent crime. In general, religion counteracts violent tendencies, though organized religion may use violence to further its own goals. But little of the violence today is truly religiously motivated, and religion doesn't stand in the way of the violence that exists. I don't think such a mass conversion would have much effect.

Offline Rosti LFC

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2008, 01:55:06 PM »
I'd love to respond to Rosti's post, but I'm getting tired.  I'll try to respond to it tomorrow.

Hey Standard, any chance of you getting around to this response? I was looking forward to it :P

Offline StandardDamage

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2008, 06:16:30 PM »
Hey Standard, any chance of you getting around to this response? I was looking forward to it :P
Oh, c'mon.  It's only been three weeks.  ;D

Actually, I went to sleep that night and completely forgot about it.

For me the Christians who follow religion and don't have to reject at least some science aren't proper Christians. I'm not saying all Christians have to be creationists, but the fact exists that there is no real room in scientific theory for God to exist. "We just haven't discovered him yet" is not a valid argument, because there's plenty of crap we'll never discover simply because they don't exist...

No one knew about giant squid either until some fisherman pulled one up on his boat. (I'm joking with that answer, BTW).

Let's be hypothetical for a second...Say there is God, and we somehow know that as fact.  How hard of a time, given the science that we have right now, would we have in finding the supreme being? If s/he were  powerful enough to create life on this planet, then the odds are pretty slim that we'd be able to just call them up.  The contact would have to come in forms that our little brains could actually handle.

Quote
The people who follow science yet still claim to be Christian aren't proper Christians. They're the sort of people who don't read the Bible, don't go to church, don't really lead any sort of religious life aside from the fact they say they're Christians. They're the people who 'believe' in God purely out of convenience...


I understand where you're coming from, Rosti, but claiming to be Christian is anything but convenient anymore.

Your claim that religions of the world are shrinking are absolutely correct.  While a few are holding stable in numbers, many are weakened and shrinking.  Given that fact, being in the minority is almost never convenient, and explaining to people why you believe what you believe is difficult.

Quote
I'd argue that the world would be a better place if all organised religion was destroyed. I wouldn't go to make outlandish claims that we'd live in some sort of Utopia where there were no wars and everyone lived happily, but I do think it would be better.

If you're thinking that it could break down some stereotypes, I agree.  Religious predjudices can run just as deep as racial ones in many cases.  But as you've already pointed out, we'd just find other things to fight about.  It's in our nature.  Even without religions, there would still be those with radical ideas that could entice others to side with them.

I won't argue that a lot of money is tied up with a lot of religions, but that's changing.  A lack of followers also means a lack of money being donated, so the coffers aren't as full as they used to be.

Without religions, I doubt the money would be going someplace else.  People are inspired to donate out of their beliefs, even if it's as simple as wanted to make sure the church can still run properly.  Without that faith, people may not be as likely to donate to anything, unless they find some cause that hits as close to home as faith does.

Quote
I'd say that if God was going to save you, why the fuck would he let you have the trouble of nearly dying? There was an assassination attempt on the Pope a while ago, and he got shot. He said it was an act of God (I think it was the Virgin Mary more precisely) that the bullet intended for his heart was strayed away and the wound was non-fatal.

Because it's not God doing these things.  Other people are doing them to you.

One thing that many religions believe in is that God gave us free will.  If that's true, then we choose our paths as far as how we treat others.   It's also beyond our control if others try to do us harm.

Offline GracefulDave

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2008, 10:01:16 PM »
This whole religion thing is just flawed. If you are a believer then you think of God as "working in mysterious ways", and if you're not then you think the only way he could exist is outside this universe. Either way, you can't prove anything, by definition. I just find it silly when people who can't prove anything try to prove their god is better. Or that there can't be one. You either believe in something unknowable or you believe you can't know. Anyone else see a problem with this debate?

This is a look at the premise of the article itself, not my opinion, experience, or veridct of the two sides.
"What are you going to do with a philosophy major, g-g-g-guh? I dunno, properly navigate the world with my mind? Jeez."
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Offline Fluffy Cocaine

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2008, 10:06:08 PM »
You either believe in something unknowable or you believe you can't know. Anyone else see a problem with this debate?

I would assume you're talking about religion/atheism vs. agnosticism, because atheism is believing in something unknowable just the same. It's believing that there is no god.

Offline Rosti LFC

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2008, 07:57:21 AM »
Agnosticism still pisses me off, though that's because I'm a Strong Atheist and believe the entire world should be as well.

For me religion is fabricated and made up, and the stance of "we'll never know" shouldn't be the accepted one because it should be "No, it's wrong".
As the flying spaghetti monster tries to indicate, it's not hard to make up something and not prove it exists but still says it does. It's also pretty much entirely impossible to ever prove the non-existence of something. Therefore the accepted stance from an agnostic's point of view would be that the FSM could exist, and that we don't know. Which is a fucking stupid stance because it blatantly doesn't. But this carries over to anything. Agnosticism, by identical logic as used with religion, should also say that Unicorns, Dragons and Magic could exist. There's no proof for their existence but there doesn't have to be because there's no way we can generate any proof otherwise either. Agnosticism just seems to be something which, for me, is supporting the recognition of something which is completely false as being potentially true, when it just isn't. Weak Atheism just makes so much more sense.

Also, Freeze, you term atheism wrong. You are in fact, probably a Weak Atheist which is to say that you don't believe that a God exists but you don't hold the belief that one cannot exist (which actually leaves agnosticism for the people who really are just sitting on the fence). Only Strong Atheism is an active belief that God does not exist, to the point of saying "I know he doesn't exist".

Offline StandardDamage

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2008, 03:22:03 PM »
For me religion is fabricated and made up, and the stance of "we'll never know" shouldn't be the accepted one because it should be "No, it's wrong"...

The fact is that no one will really ever know because we'll never see it with our own eyes, at least while we're on this planet.  I'm pretty sure the afterlife holds a few surprises for everybody.

Even life-after-death experiences don't teach us squat about what's out there. 

The thing is that I think we would all like to know what's really there, so we could just get on with our lives.  Instead, we hold to series of beliefs, whether those beliefs are whether we have a god or don't.

Offline Fluffy Cocaine

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2008, 04:23:38 PM »
Also, Freeze, you term atheism wrong. You are in fact, probably a Weak Atheist which is to say that you don't believe that a God exists but you don't hold the belief that one cannot exist (which actually leaves agnosticism for the people who really are just sitting on the fence). Only Strong Atheism is an active belief that God does not exist, to the point of saying "I know he doesn't exist".

I suppose I just got my terminology wrong; I thought that atheism was simply strong atheism, and everything in between was agnosticism leaning in one direction or the other.

I don't believe I'm a weak atheist. I may be in a few years, but for the moment, I'm still coming straight off of being a Catholic for many years before I gained the heavenly ability to think for myself and realize that most of what they told me is bullshit. However, I do still believe that there is a good possibility that a god and a paradise does exist.

Offline Mark

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2008, 01:06:58 AM »
Agnosticism still pisses me off, though that's because I'm a Strong Atheist and believe the entire world should be as well.

That makes you just as bad as the devout Christians that push their beliefs on everyone else.

The way I see it, believe whatever you want.  Anything at all.  Just keep it to yourself.  Hold your beliefs, and let others do the same.  You may not believe in the existence of a higher being, but who's to say that you're right about that?  You sound so sure of yourself, but it all comes down to the same thing.  We don't have a clue what the truth is, and we have no way to know for sure.

I can't understand why people believe that everyone should think the same thing they do when it comes to religion.  What effect does it have on you what others believe?  None of this would be a problem if people would just keep their beliefs to themselves. 

If someone wants to believe in FSM, let them.  If someone wants to believe in unicorns, dragons, and magic, let them.  What's the problem?  My entire problem with religion is based around the "my god is better than your god" crap.  But that applies to atheism, too.  Except that it's more like "my lack of belief in a god is better than your god", or something like that.

Offline Lardarse

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2008, 09:16:55 AM »
The thing is that I think we would all like to know what's really there, so we could just get on with our lives.  Instead, we hold to series of beliefs, whether those beliefs are whether we have a god or don't.
And then fight about it because their strong (almost overwhelming) beliefs make them feel that they are right and everyone else is wrong...

Regardless of wether or not religion itself is a bad thing, there have been many bad things done in the past "in the name of religion". It's those things that cloud our view of what religion actually is, and instead make us say that certain religions (or all of them, in some cases) are evil. It's at the point where religious people are giving religion a bad name. (insert Rosti here saying something about it deserving that bad name...)

I feel like I'm leaving this train of thought unfinished here, even though I can't think of anything coherent to add right now. Should I be waiting for divine inspiration?

Offline Rosti LFC

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2008, 05:28:25 PM »
That makes you just as bad as the devout Christians that push their beliefs on everyone else.

I'd be a liar if I tried to say I've never tried to push Atheism onto someone who is Christian, but usually it's just in response to something which they've started. I don't (quite) go around actively trying to push my beliefs onto people. I just can't resist the opportunity to argue with someone like Makoto when they make forum posts on how great Jesus is, or why evolution is wrong or some other crap.

Considering how much stuff there is out there trying to preach to people and convert them to various religions though, you'd think the world would be due a few people trying to do the opposite and teach Atheism, because there's definitely scope for it.

But I don't think it's much to say that I think everyone else should be Atheist too. I mean, I can accept people will have different views but I think it goes for all people to say that they think everyone else should hold the same viewpoint be it in religion, politics, music or whatever.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 05:31:11 PM by Rosti LFC »

Offline StandardDamage

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2008, 10:19:49 AM »
But I don't think it's much to say that I think everyone else should be Atheist too.

I don't want everone else to be a Catholic...but my reasoning for that is completely different than the point you were trying to make.

I actually enjoy the different viewpoints because differing opinions force you to think your beliefs through.  That's an important thing, because so many people wander through life talking about their beliefs, but never stopped to question why they believe what they believe.

Offline Fluffy Cocaine

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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2008, 10:22:01 AM »
I'd generally believe that everyone who is very strong in their worldly convictions would want everyone else to share in them. The most passionate of them, anyway. I mean, there are things I believe that I wouldn't want anyone else to believe, and I certainly don't go around preaching agnosticism (since that's fairly stupid, since there's no way to really do that), but if I was a passionate atheist, I could see myself pushing views on others by reflex.