What do you kids think?

[Snoggums]

Alcohol more dangerous, you guys have probably already read this...

Rosti, this means you. :|

[Rosti LFC]

CNN have totally misreported the findings of the study there. They imply that alcohol is a more harmful drug than heroin on a case-by-case basis, which is completely wrong.

The findings of the report is that in the UK, in total across the entire population, alcohol causes more harm than the likes of heroin or crack. Which is pretty much expected given that pretty much everyone drinks and only a small minority take heroin.

To quote the guy who authored the report:

Overall, alcohol is the most harmful drug because it's so widely used. Crack cocaine is more addictive than alcohol but because alcohol is so widely used there are hundreds of thousands of people who crave alcohol every day, and those people will go to extraordinary lengths to get it.

Sodding US media bias... you guys need a BBC equivalent.

[Genevra]

Ehh I pretty much have to agree with Rosti here. I can totally see how alcohol related accidents are more common, but that doesn't mean the alcohol itself is more damaging than heroin. And of course the population that does heroin is far less. I know plenty of people who drink, but I don't know a single person that does heroin.

It's pretty well known how much more addictive heroin is. Considering it's an opiate that acts so quickly once it's injected, you get a strong high suddenly. While with alcohol it doesn't nearly act that fast or with that intensity.

I also think that generally, people who become addicted to alcohol are people who are pretty messed up in the first place. I have never heard a case where a normal average teenager loved alcohol so much that he became addicted and fucked up his future because of it, while there are plenty of cases like that involving heroin. The only cases I've heard where alcohol fucks people up are along the lines drunk driving and whatnot.

Not to say those aren't terrible things. I do think we need to work on encouraging people to be more responsible with alcohol, and it can definitely damage families and whatnot. Obviously the article is making it look like alcohol itself is more harmful, but the fact is that more harmful incidents have happened under the influence of alcohol, and in the end that isn't really any better.

I have another question: What's your opinion on the whole stigma that marijuana is more harmful than alcohol?

[Rosti LFC]

Personally I think that marijuana probably is more harmful than alcohol. I don't really know how tenuous the links with things like schizophrenia and paranoia are, but from being close friends with someone with mental illness I feel like that sort of shit is definitely more scary for me.

Alcohol can destroy your life, but so can pretty much any addictive substance if you let it. Physically though, alcohol can only fuck up your liver, and it's fairly well understood exactly what sort of quantities you need to do damage. The research and knowledge base for weed isn't nearly up to the same level. There's no real knowledge of whether smoking a small amount every other day, or a larger amount a couple of times a week, would cause damage in the long term.

Fact is, when I drink alcohol I feel comfortable that the amounts I'm drinking aren't going to cause me any long-term damage. I don't really have the same confidence with marijuana because there's no well documented link between how much you can smoke before it starts to screw with your mind and personality. I'll still smoke it on occasion, but I'm definitely not as comfortable with it as I am with alcohol, and that's not directly just due to the illegality of it. Plus fixing a broken liver is far more plausible than fixing a broken mind.

All of this said, I still think it should be legal or, at the very least, be considered the same as tobacco, because it's pretty well demonstrated that any amount of smoking can be a massive risk to your health. If we're apparently mature enough to decide whether we can smoke cigarettes or not, then I think people should be allowed the same liberty with marijuana. If marijuana is banned then cigarettes should be, or they should both be legal, and I think anything else is just a double-standard.

[Nines~Tempest]

The findings of the report is that in the UK, in total across the entire population, alcohol causes more harm than the likes of heroin or crack. Which is pretty much expected given that pretty much everyone drinks and only a small minority take heroin.

This is kind of the first thing that came to my mind when I was reading the article, but I still agree with rosti here.

Bleh, marijuana.  I don't really know enough about it to say whether it's truly dangerous or not; every pot head ever says it's completely harmless, which I can't believe for a second.  Kind of in the same boat as Rosti, except I don't really feel comfortable at all actually smoking it.

[SnickersTheCat]

Ok... I totally agree with this. And Rosti, I highly disagree with you on the marijuana facts
I smoke on a somewhat regular basis on social occations. I did it maybe 2 times last month and then once over the summer. I drink maybe a little more frequently simply because it can be purchased legally. Infact I have a bottle of sake sitting in my room at the moment, often I don't drink to get super-drunk although I get very very social when I'm drunk and enjoy the taste of alcohol (Except hard liquor) very much. But we really have to look at the neuroscience behind this all.

Is inhaling marijuana smoke bad for your health? Yes, but you can eat it or something and get around that fact.
You see like other drugs the THC in marijuana can pass through the blood-brain barrier. Obviously in most cases this wouldn't be a good thing. However instead of permeating the neurons it gets stored in fat easily. It just so happens the myelin or sheath around the neuron axon insulating it is made of fat. Thus it just soaks into the fat instead of the actual soma. Heroin or meth as a prime example, and alcohol do a good job of actually getting into the cell itself. The interesting fact is that the myelin sheath essentially speeds up the electrical signals moving around in your brain, but with THC it can't do that as well. So that's why when you're high, everything seems to move so slow and you lack full concentration of the world around you. Because the THC is clogging it up. But it 1-4 hours most of it gets carted off and stored in fat elsewhere in the body. So instead of getting busted for doing heroin or coke Mary Jane will ALWAYS get you busted on a drug test.

But back to alcohol, if you look at almost any chart, often showing addictivity v. harm to the body. The order often goes like this:
Opiates. (Heroine, Morphine)
Depressants. (Alcohols)
Stimulates. (Caffeine, Ecstasy)
Anesthetics. (Ketamine, Vicodin)
Cannaboids. (Marijuana)
Hallucinogens. (LSD, magic mushrooms)

As well all know, alcohol is a depressant. Not the worst but still pretty bad, unlike much milder drugs it interferes with with GABA receptors after it's metabolized... which is worse than most drugs. Not to mention thousands of people die from alcohol poisoning every year. Unlike marijuana which just slows down your thought process, alcohol interferes with motor control causing thousands of car accident deaths and injuries.
Often the worst drugs for you are in order:
Heroine, Meth, Crack, Morphine, Cocaine and finally our friend alcohol right up at the top of the list.
To me it seems like a rather double standard that the government would permit carcinogens like alcohol (yes it is) and tobacco while making marijuana and shrooms illegal. Especially because those are FAR less processed and have been used by people for thousands of years.
Frankly the marijuana thing just pisses me off when people fail to realize how harmful alcohol is to them. People have the freewill to try whatever drug they choose even if it's illegal (I have a bone to pick with the government being a libertarian as well). If you want to go straightedge and avoid all that stuff then God bless you. But ultimately what it comes down to is everything in moderation. When you're getting high every day or getting drunk every night your going to have issues fuctioning no matter what. Although I think the things that Rosti are talking about in relation to marijuana are that it does cause some crazy things to happen if you do too much in one sitting. But the majority of people I know have tried weed and the paranoia is overblown (except when your high... then it's the end of the world until you get your hands on some potato chips). But I think because of cultural taboos and misinformation people tend to use a highly addictive and potent drug (alcohol) more often which is very unfortunate.

[Jake]

I'll just say everything from my perspective and my experiences with drugs and alcohol.
Alcohol I have seen destroy three lives in one night, but that's because people don't know how to control themselves while drunk.  A person who can't manage themselves while drunk have lately been sickening to me. (But I've been there too so can't judge too much).
I can't even begin to describe the disdain I have for people when I hear they've pissed themselves drunk.
Weed is a completely strange thing to me.  I've only been high like twice in my entire life and it was awesome.  What had happened was we mixed the weed with shisha and smoked it in a hookah.  Now I'm not going to go out and become a huge pothead, but I had a good time and enjoyed myself while I was doing it.  It's enjoyable but I'm not actively searching out for another chance to get to it.
The only hallucinogen I've had are the magic mushrooms which were fucking awesome as well.  I only had those once but would eagerly do them again because it was sooo sooo great.
Also sometime this year I will be trying acid so I'll get back to you all on that.

[Rosti LFC]

But back to alcohol, if you look at almost any chart, often showing addictivity v. harm to the body. The order often goes like this:
Opiates. (Heroine, Morphine)
Depressants. (Alcohols)
Stimulates. (Caffeine, Ecstasy)
Anesthetics. (Ketamine, Vicodin)
Cannaboids. (Marijuana)
Hallucinogens. (LSD, magic mushrooms)

"Depressants" and "Stimulants" seem like dumb ways to class drugs given that several drugs actually contain aspects of both sets.

As well all know, alcohol is a depressant. Not the worst but still pretty bad, unlike much milder drugs it interferes with with GABA receptors after it's metabolized... which is worse than most drugs. Not to mention thousands of people die from alcohol poisoning every year. Unlike marijuana which just slows down your thought process, alcohol interferes with motor control causing thousands of car accident deaths and injuries.

Firstly, to say "thousands die from alcohol poisoning" as if there are definitely no potentially harmful effects of marijuana seems totally stupid. Sure, it's not directly a toxin in the same way, but that's absolutely got nothing to do with the fact that marijuana does alter your brain function, and over time the long-term effects can still definitely be there. They might not directly kill you, and it might not be "poisoning" but that doesn't mean they're not harmful or undesirable.

Secondly, thousands of car accident deaths and injuries come from taking alcohol and then driving. Which, as a matter of fact, is illegal. The fact that it's massively under-punished in the US until you've done it several times is a different issue (and almost certainly the reason why you guys have far more alcohol-related road deaths than Europe, despite far more stigma against alcohol and a higher drinking age). That danger is not alcohol itself, that danger is people taking alcohol and then being irresponsible and driving, which is totally different. Plus, from my personal experience with marijuana, I wouldn't really have confidence in people driving while high either. Sure, it might not directly affect motor control, but it's still slowing your thought processes and making you easily distracted, and it would most likely cause a significant number of road deaths if people consumed it in the same manner and frequency as alcohol. As it is, it's illegal, and the culture around it is completely different.

I mean, really, you're drawing conclusions and shit from such disproportionate samples of people. I know dozens of people who drink several times a week, and get extremely drunk maybe once every couple of months (myself included). I know maybe half a dozen who smoke weed on a regular basis (at least once a week). Squirrel, you say most people you know have tried weed, which is specifically my point. They've tried it. I'm pretty sure if most people had only tried alcohol then it could also be argued to be a fairly harmless drug.

If people consume alcohol responsibly, there's pretty much no danger. The same could potentially be said for marijuana but as far as I know the data isn't there for the long-term effects.

[Clyde]

It would be interesting to see a long-term study done on the effects of marijuana.  It seems that older people who were pot-heads back in the day (and still are) aren't always quite there.  As in, it takes them longer to process information or be as responsive, etc.  It is at least clear that there were some long-term impacts.

It is all in moderation.  If you only do something once in a while, you'll probably be fine.  I drink maybe once every 2 or 3 weeks.  I get extremely drunk maybe not even once a year.  In fact, it's probably been over 2 years since I've been extremely drunk.  Yet, I still haven't been drunk to the point where I don't remember things.  I haven't taken drugs yet and I don't really have a burning desire to.

I think I agree with Rosti in the sense that if people only tried alcohol and it wasn't as widely used, it would be thought to be fairly harmless.  If you use any type of drug excessively, it is bound to have some sort of negative impact on your body and/or mind.

[SnickersTheCat]

"Depressants" and "Stimulants" seem like dumb ways to class drugs given that several drugs actually contain aspects of both sets.

True, and you have our wonderfully inept bureaucracy to credit with classifying them that way.

Firstly, to say "thousands die from alcohol poisoning" as if there are definitely no potentially harmful effects of marijuana seems totally stupid. Sure, it's not directly a toxin in the same way, but that's absolutely got nothing to do with the fact that marijuana does alter your brain function, and over time the long-term effects can still definitely be there. They might not directly kill you, and it might not be "poisoning" but that doesn't mean they're not harmful or undesirable.

I agree with you to an extent. The people who light up every single day for the past 30 years seem to have problems. But if they're doing that so frequently you have to wonder if correlation is causation or not. And second of all there are very marked negative long-term effects of (excessive) alcohol (Liver cancer, brain damage, liver polyps, ulcers etc.) which are still as much or far more undesireable than marijuana. It really doesn't strike me as an arguement to keep regulating it.

Sure, it might not directly affect motor control, but it's still slowing your thought processes and making you easily distracted, and it would most likely cause a significant number of road deaths if people consumed it in the same manner and frequency as alcohol. As it is, it's illegal, and the culture around it is completely different.

Ok, to be honest here I have driven with people who are drunk and driven with people who are high. I would trust the high person every single time, infact, granted this is simply from personal experience and is nothing scientific, but backs up my point. But I'd argue that people go out of their way to drive carefully high (e.g. going 5 mph under the speed limit etc.). Driving under the influence of weed is something I don't condone but I decline to say if I refer to it from first-hand experience.
Once again there should be no reason why driving under the influence of weed couldn't be regulated the same way as alcohol. Simply because we legalize marijuana on TOP of alcohol, all the sudden we're going to see x2 as many car accidents. I think the same irresponsible people who drive drunk would drive high frequently as well.

I mean, really, you're drawing conclusions and shit from such disproportionate samples of people. I know dozens of people who drink several times a week, and get extremely drunk maybe once every couple of months (myself included). I know maybe half a dozen who smoke weed on a regular basis (at least once a week). Squirrel, you say most people you know have tried weed, which is specifically my point. They've tried it. I'm pretty sure if most people had only tried alcohol then it could also be argued to be a fairly harmless drug.

I know multiple people who have tried crack and heroine and have told me they'd never do it again :/.
But once you understand how the drug affects you it becomes far less scary than those government advertisements on TV would have you believe (I'm looking at you "Above The Influence"). Roughly of half the population of North American countries like the US and Canada have smoked weed with under 10 percent smoking it regularly. In Europe the figure drops below 25% and in Asia it's non-existent (Dealing gets you the death penalty in China, and recreational use is 5 years in Japan). The simple fact that it is more taboo in societies such as the UK for instance simply based on the cultural stigma and lack of information. I'm not saying your uninformed but perhaps it would make you, your peers etc. subliminally more wary of it because of your background as opposed to people living in North America.

[SnickersTheCat]

Also sometime this year I will be trying acid so I'll get back to you all on that.

Highly recommended :3.
No impairment... everything just looks/sounds/feels crazy/awesome.
It effects everyone differently, for me it screws with my sense of touch in epic ways.

[Rosti LFC]

And second of all there are very marked negative long-term effects of (excessive) alcohol (Liver cancer, brain damage, liver polyps, ulcers etc.) which are still as much or far more undesireable than marijuana.

The thing there is that the likes of liver failure is pretty easily detected, and pretty easily linked back to alcohol abuse. The long-term effects of excessive marijuana are all far more hazy as they affect the personality. If smoking weed causes say, premature onset of senile dementia, then I'd argue that it's still a massively undesirable side-effect. It's just that it's far harder to link things like that to specific things because we understand far less about the diseases themselves, and also because there's far less data available into the long-term effects of the drug.

Ok, to be honest here I have driven with people who are drunk and driven with people who are high.

Personally I would never get into a car where I knew the driver had been drinking, or smoking something. I would probably not let them get behind the wheel either unless they were a complete stranger.

But I'd argue that people go out of their way to drive carefully high (e.g. going 5 mph under the speed limit etc.).

I've known drunk people say they'll do the exact same thing. Generally if there's a car going abnormally slow on the road late at night it's usually because the driver is drunk and being extra careful.
Also lol 5mph under the speed limit is going to make pretty much no difference to anything.

[Clyde]

Once again there should be no reason why driving under the influence of weed couldn't be regulated the same way as alcohol. Simply because we legalize marijuana on TOP of alcohol, all the sudden we're going to see x2 as many car accidents. I think the same irresponsible people who drive drunk would drive high frequently as well.

I agree with what I italicized assuming that you meant that the number of accidents would remain constant after the legalization of marijuana.  Irresponsible people will be irresponsible.

As for the bolded, I believe that it would be more difficult to regulate in the sense that marijuana stays in your system for much longer than alcohol.  So somebody who got in an accident who was not actually impaired but happened to get high a few days earlier, may still fail the drug test (if I understand correctly).  I just see potential problems.

I agree that they could set the consequences as the same.  It's just whether or not the police will ensure that the person is impaired beyond a reasonable doubt.  I'm sure it would be obvious in most situations, but what if you are dealing with a cop who happens to be a douchebag and forces a drug test on you?  What happens if you test positive even if you aren't actually under the influence at that moment?  That's the sort of thing I would worry about.

[SnickersTheCat]

The thing there is that the likes of liver failure is pretty easily detected, and pretty easily linked back to alcohol abuse. The long-term effects of excessive marijuana are all far more hazy as they affect the personality. If smoking weed causes say, premature onset of senile dementia, then I'd argue that it's still a massively undesirable side-effect. It's just that it's far harder to link things like that to specific things because we understand far less about the diseases themselves, and also because there's far less data available into the long-term effects of the drug.

I'd say that would be argueable among heavy smokers, obviously not everyone. Including most of the people I know who smoke in moderation. Is it undesireable? Yes. Ingesting too much diacetyl gives you "popcorn lung". Eating too much sugar and sodium screws with your metabolism and gives you diabetes, obesity and high blood pressure (Far more pervasive and costly than mental issues from being stoned all the time). And marijuana is relatively well-studied, but once again we don't have conclusions for 40 years down the line. But honestly there's no neurologal reason I can think of that would cause me to have alzhemiers or schizophrenia 40 years from now because I smoked weed. Not everyone is a alcoholic I doubt everyone will be blazed all the time either.
But let's say it is true, and there is a correlation. Why should the almighty and benevolent nanny-state regulate and ban a (relatively) non-addictive and non-lethal (unlike alchohol) substance that I enjoy on my own time? If I know there are psycho-developmental risks to marijuana, or obviously that it can't be good for me, thats no good reason for it to stay illegal. Infact it was originally made illegal back in the depression-era Southwest as an excuse to deport Mexicans taking US jobs back across the border. Now the arguement has shifted to the entirely false basis that everyone will take up crack after having a few joints.

Personally I would never get into a car where I knew the driver had been drinking, or smoking something. I would probably not let them get behind the wheel either unless they were a complete stranger.

Well I'm a bit of a risk-taker then.

I've known drunk people say they'll do the exact same thing. Generally if there's a car going abnormally slow on the road late at night it's usually because the driver is drunk and being extra careful.
Also lol 5mph under the speed limit is going to make pretty much no difference to anything.

I normally to 10mph over :/.

[SnickersTheCat]

I agree with what I italicized assuming that you meant that the number of accidents would remain constant after the legalization of marijuana.  Irresponsible people will be irresponsible.

As for the bolded, I believe that it would be more difficult to regulate in the sense that marijuana stays in your system for much longer than alcohol.  So somebody who got in an accident who was not actually impaired but happened to get high a few days earlier, may still fail the drug test (if I understand correctly).  I just see potential problems.

I agree that they could set the consequences as the same.  It's just whether or not the police will ensure that the person is impaired beyond a reasonable doubt.  I'm sure it would be obvious in most situations, but what if you are dealing with a cop who happens to be a douchebag and forces a drug test on you?  What happens if you test positive even if you aren't actually under the influence at that moment?  That's the sort of thing I would worry about.

Wow, you bring up a fantastic point
I'm sure there are tests that can measure THC in your system similar to your BAC. But I'm not positive, I'll have to look into that.

[Rosti LFC]

I never said that it should stay illegal. I just disagree with the statements that it's safe.

[Genevra]

Personally I wouldn't label any chemical that dramatically changes the way you think/feel as "safe". It is the same for legal medications, but those are usually the lesser of the two evils in those situations.

The best alternative is always just to stay away from drugs and alcohol. But hey, your social life basically goes down the drain if you do that. Sad, sad world we live in where one of the main ways to be accepted by others socially is to intake damaging chemicals.

[Rosti LFC]

I wouldn't agree with that. Though you do have to at least be prepared to put yourself into a situation where you are surrounded by people doing such things.

Or you could always live in Utah

[Genevra]

But to be socially accepted in Utah you have to follow crazy Mormon values.  That's just as bad.

[Rosti LFC]

I'd take crystal meth over mormons any day of the week